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would you buy a Deli from this man .........................

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StewartG
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 22:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed Paul.

I wouldn't take one for nothing as you would have to spend about £3k putting it right!
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WestyorksNeil



Joined: 01 Jul 2014
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Location: Liversedge

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 23:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys for the advice. He rang this afternoon to say car was ready. I went and had a good look round and checked that it did actually have some new bits on it, he did end up putting a new exhaust on it too. All seemed well so paid him and set off home. As soon as we hit the motorway the temp gauge went from just below half to just below the top in about 3 mile!! I pulled off the motorway and rang dean, we swapped cars again and I have left him to fix it once again. Will ring him tomorrow to ask him how long its going to be. If he takes to long or car has any other fault I will be getting my money back for sure. Wish I had joined this site a few days earlier!!
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NICO
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 16:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all

I'm new to this forum, but would like everyone to know my experience of this Dean Rosenthal.
I travelled from Scotland to buy a Delica off him - the usual rubbish on his advert - as on all of them, all the same spec, "this one's a beauty even by our standards", "in as close to original condition as possible", allsorts done to it before full valet AND 12 MONTHS MOT!!. "A question we get asked a lot is "how do they tow?" - we recently pulled a Delica on a 3.5 ton trailer back from Cornwall, that's quite a hilly trip" "premium sound system with multi speakers as standard", "passenger and drivers chrome side steps", "central locking and 2 position suspension comfort control" "the car is presented in a condition I would want to buy one" - long story short, I put it in for an MOT as soon as I got it home, (on Rosenthal's recommendation, after I'd told him the problems I'd had on the drive back to scotland) On the drive to Scotland things started packing in - dashboard lights, sunroof leaked, no oil in engine, overheating, coolant spraying all over battery - suspension dropped on drivers side. The MOT failed on 20 different things and 8 advisories!! Mostly corrosion on the sub-frame and chassis , there are HUGE holes underneath, and the suspension could have killed me if I'd gone over a pothole as the corrosion would have given way. Tried phoning him, kept getting an answering machine that you can't leave a message on. Went to CAB and trading standards, and did everything by the book - sent him a letter via special delivery with a copy of the MOT- he signed for it yet I heard nothing at all. Sent e-mails via EBAY, which were ignored, and only when I mentioned my Royal Marines reunion coach stopping at his house to pick up my refund with the police did he reply, very sarcastically, that if I brought the vehicle back, he would refund my money. It has no MOT!! it is dangerous and a death trap, yet he expects me to drive it back to him??? Been in touch with trading standards again  - totally up to him to recover it at his own expense, and VOSA are sending out an inspection engineer to condemn it. It's in quarantine at the minute. When I e-mailed him, all I got was a reply saying "whatever. Bring it back you'll get paid" I can see this going the whole hog with small claims etc. if he refuses to pick it up, but they're charging him storage charges on a daily rate until he collects it, so it's in his best interests to pick up ASAP. The police and Trading standards, CAB and Wigan Council are all on my side, so hopefully I'll get a result. So in reply to the question .. would I %$£K  buy a van off this man. If they tow as well as he said in his advert, he can jump into one he's trying to sell with his 3.5 tonne trailer and come and pick his expensive rubbish up from the VOSA inspector and police. Also got a barrister looking into it from my sister's practice who's keeping me right on the law side of things. Please don't buy off this man!! Mad
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StewartG
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 18:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear you got ripped by this tosser......pity you never caught sight of the info on this site first about him. He's a complete waste of space!  Crying or Very sad
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unclebazwold
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 18:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup let's hope you get it resolved.
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albideli



Joined: 02 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 19:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not good at all, but did you not give it a good check over before handing any money over, the rust should have been obvious, anyone buying a car of this age should be wary and go over it with a knowledgeable person if unsure yourself, yes he shouldn't sell shit, but you gotta check what you're buying
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NICO
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the support lads, appreciated. Albideli - unfortunately it was dark, wet and under the lights of a garage up the road from him, couldn't get under it for a skeg, but the rest looked mint, as it did in the advert, so I thought it was well looked after all round, how wrong can you be lol  Shocked
I'll keep yous updated, thanks for the messages 8-)
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illapulito



Joined: 30 Jun 2012
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Location: Northampton

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 22:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the basis that there are two sides to every story (caveat emptor v trade description)

Thus the factual question would include (as you highlighted)

consideration of :-    12 months MoT    versus    MoT failure  (quoted advisory chassis rust being a potential case in point)

(and this seems to me to be the principal basis of your claim)

BTW Technically speaking: Am I right in assuming the second MoT over-rides the first (12 month validity) one ? Your post suggests this is the case. Just to be clear - you cannot legally drive on the original one ? (regardless of other considerations)

If not, as implied, then presumably you have a written independent expert advice as to roadworthiness/safety (as a refund has been offered if delivered) copied to the vendor (as with the MoT) by registered post ?

It is a 20 year old car, not mint, but you are right to say you rely on information that was written and which you therefore reasonably believed to be true.

But by buying a vehicle in the dark, with no independent inspection, and possibly no written warranty, suggests you might consider taking some of the responsibility yourself.

But to sell a car with "no" oil and overheating issues (given the head/gasket sensibilities) seems not to be in the vendors best interests in any sense (I presume there is no defined warranty provided).

Given that only one side of the story is being given I would be interested in the facts of the matter. I appreciate you are not happy and feel aggrieved, understandably, especially at this time of year.

I hope you get it resolved, and sooner rather than later.

In any event. I am interested to hear how things develop.

Whatever happens, don't let it spoil your Christmas and New Year.
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Green Grouch
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 23:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should be able to trust an Mot - especially if its 12 months and  -  especially if coming from a dealer.!

I've learnt the hard way myself but also learnt a lot about mechanics from it !!

Don't give up on it though - but saying that I doubt you will being ex Bootneck !!

All the best with it - let us know how it goes
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illapulito



Joined: 30 Jun 2012
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Location: Northampton

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 23:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Green Grouch wrote:
We should be able to trust an Mot - especially if its 12 months and †- †especially if coming from a dealer.!


We don't know who issued the 12 month MoT but the story suggests whoever did it may well have some questions to answer.

I assume most people don't put all their faith solely in an MoT. When I got mine I had it looked over (and given a full service) by a Mitsi dealership.

For me the MoT is not just a necessity ... I welcome identification of all and any issues / advisories as things always get worse sooner or later so I'd rather know and get things fixed.

I have added a tigweld header tank, audible warning temp gauge etc. as I don't want any problems that can be avoided

- which is frustrating when EU breakdown cover is often restricted to vehicles over 10, or 15, or 20 years (as mine is now just over 20 years and is well-serviced with no known issues). MoT due in January (I am hoping for a clean report)
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Green Grouch
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 0:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes - I maybe didn't explain properly -

A lot or most people put most of there faith in an Mot from a dealer and if the motor looks good on the outside they forget what is lurking below - I have done in the past.

Nico - I reckon the the trading standards will look into who issued the Mot and hopefully act accordingly

Most Mot stations have been a pain in the bum to us all for minor issues so it makes it a joke when a dealer somehow gets a shed through - I thought or hoped that had all stopped.

Anyway - its getting late and santas not gonna come if your not asleep !!

Merry Xmas !!
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andyman



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the upside, you may well be the final straw that breaks this camel's back.
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illapulito



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 19:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Green Grouch wrote:


Most Mot stations have been a pain in the bum to us all for minor issues so it makes it a joke when a dealer somehow gets a shed through - I thought or hoped that had all stopped.



In France they have dedicated MoT centres.

I had to have new ball joints last time (Jan 2014) for mine and at a recent service I was told I will need to replace the rubber gaiters protecting them. It is an MoT failure.

So it not the MoT as much as frustration at not getting things done right the first time.

Insofar as this thread currently refers to serious chassis rust (holes), it seems a reasonably on its face a potentially serious case.

The other aspect seems to me that this is not the first time buyers have had problems but it is only now it is being investigated formally - why not before, I wonder ? I can understand folk sounding rather miffed but "innocent until proven guilty" should be kept in mind.

In my opinion, the threatening behaviour (reference to marines) doesn't help the argument, and making written reference to it (on the thread) is not advatageous I suspect.

Personally I find it useful to try and see it from the other guys side, for some better perspective; as well as keeping to the facts not the emotion.

Presumably if the alleged charges are as stated then due process will apply. Any reason not to think so ?

Wheels appear to have been set in motion. Don't let it spoil the holiday season.

Best wishes for the season to all contributors.
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Green Grouch
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 0:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illapulito

Nicos just venting off a bit -

Sometimes when we get ripped off and suddenly the so called gent, that was so polite before he took our cash then turns into a total unapproachable waste of space - gets you a bit wound up !

I have no idea what the guy involved here is like but some people sadly only listen to one language and only when they have 2 !

Lets leave it there for now and hope he gets some compensation and Nico - Give us an update on this thread - Crack On !
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NICO
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 19:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your comments Green Grouch, you're absolutely right, it's most frustrating, and thanks for recognising that  Wink
illapulito - I was merely describing my experience for the thread "would you buy a Deli off this man?", and giving a factual account, so other buyers can beware if buying off this bloke.
I also think that the fact there are 8 pages dedicated to this guy, and several from the Pajero owners club, with many complaints of the same ilk, and the fact he has already been prosecuted for the very same thing,(it is not the first time he is being investigated formally, look in previous threads),  prevents me from "seeing the other guys side", especially as he knew the vehicle was bought to transport my young family, and the chassis would have collapsed had I gone over a decent pothole. It is this that makes me a bit  ' factually emotional',and unable to see the 'better perspective' that you mention, I'm afraid.
The "threatening behaviour" you mention was nothing of the sort - I also mentioned that I would be asking the police to be in attendance - can't get much more law abiding than that!
I really don't think it matters a jot what tactics I use, as  Trading Standards fine the guy in court, I see none of his fine. It's totally up to me to try and get my money back, if this involves embarrassing him to do so, in front of the law, then so be it!  
Yes, due process is already in force, I have no misgivings about the case.
Andyman - thanks also for your comment, hopefully it will be, but not before I get my money back lol  Laughing
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Borave



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Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 0:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in Wigan Nico. So if you need any help from this end I am willing to help
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Byway



Joined: 21 Oct 2013
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Location: Quernmore

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not the MoT mainly - you can't rely on that once it has left the garage - but the description that a trader gives that has to be accurate. But Dean seems to describe one vehicle, which you can't buy for reasons that may be legitimate, but he has another which you can buy but you don't have the written advert for that one. Whether or not this is deliberate, I've no idea. Sometimes he gives his location as Wigan and sometimes Hindley (which is an outlier of Wigan)

As someone who was ripped off by this person (in 2013) I would add to the voices saying be wary of him.
BTW there is another Delica trader based only 2 miles from him (I think his name is Gary) who sold me a decent Deli - it is perhaps unfortunate that they are geographically so close; check who it is not just where it is!

cheers
Byway
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Dngrsdaz



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone

I'm a newbie here and what I have just read has me in embarrassment and disgust, Why you might ask because Mr Dean Rosenthal of Hindley has just ripped me right off and I'm a qualified machinery engineer , I never knew about this guy before I bought a Elgrand from him 2 weeks ago. It was made out to be perfect in the ad, these are his his words "fully refurbished stock", "as in close to original condition as possible", "this particular car is in excellent condition", "No Mechanical issues". That last one is my favourite.

On the very drive home I should of turned around and dropped it back off as I noticed a large knock on slow sharp turns I.e. exiting a left or right turn road. the very next day the MIL light flashed up, obviously being an engineer  I had the urge to diagnose the situation and booked it on the ramp, however earliest oportunity to inspect was around 5 days after purchase (I wanted the facts before I approached Mr Rosenthal).  Upon inspection it became apparent that their was an un-natural amount of play within the steering gear housing as it looks the support bushes have failed and the pinion is slipping over the rack teeth (hence the loud knock) and the the MIL was down to the Mass air flow sensor failing, the car appeared not to have been serviced since its arrival in the UK (original Japanese oil and fuel filter) however air filter had been changed at some point. the stereo never worked and the offside front tyre was slick, however dean supplied a part worn however it becam apparent that no alloy locking key was supplied so could not fit it. Armed with this info I contacted him as he supplied a 1000 mile warranty or 1 month (however the law allows 6 months under the sale of goods act).
I asked he supply me with a steering rack and MAF sensor I would fit them myself as I didn't now trust any work he would do, if he was willing to let a car go in this condition. Dean refused to supply a MAF and told me to "just clean it" and said he could get a steering rack so I contested this and said it must be replaced to which he replied "you did get £500 off the car". ladies an gentelman the £500 he is reffering too was me bartering over ebay he listed it at £3995 I offered £3500 before seeing, he agreed. at no point did he express or mention any faults, remember the car had "No mechanical issues". so I awaited his reply. and I waited.

I didn't use the car for the next couple of days as I was awaiting his reply however I was then forced into using it as I needed to collect the kids from school and other "fit for purpose" use. Now this is where the fun begins 10 days after purchasing the car and no reply of Dean I'm heading down the motorway to collect the boys from school, a short trip of around five miles when the car looses power and begins to bellow smoke I immediatly exit the motorway as I was by the junction luckily and shut her down its dark so I abandon it and arrange a lift home.  I message Dean asking for a full refund as I have the right to reject for a refund within 4 weeks of purchase under the sales of goods act and ask him to recover, he agrees to the refund however says he Can't recover it (even tough he has a flatbed recovery truck in his yard) luckily I manage to have it recovered back home by my insurance.  Cue next message of when can you collect this car Dean its a non runner and as he had agreed to a refund, his responsibility his reply "I will give you your money back once I have made sure you haven't mis-used it" !!ALARM BELLS!! immediately my trust level, already low vanishes as I start to think he will make it look like its been misused I.e. contaminate the fuel, drain the oil and refuse a refund so I contest and ask for an independant inspection, suprise dean refuses. then begins a long toil of two and from of I want my money back I'm within my rights to Dean I have rights too I'm allowed to inspect it I argue what are his qualification to professionally diagnose mis-use he doesn't reply (my thoughts exactly).

I get advice and book the car in for an diagnosis at a local garage within 48 hours I am told the turbo has failed (my original suspicion and I informed Dean of this before, due to failed maf would of been sending turbo into overboost Which is why I asked for replacement) (however it wouldn't of made the blind bit of difference as it would of been like this for some months so still would of failed) the oil seal had burst and the bearings where worn. I informed Dean whe replied along the lines , sorry for your dilemma I will issue a refund after inspection this will take 28 days, when can I collect the car.  WTF 28 days to look at a turbo I have compiled all the evidence from the start and correspondance plus the original advert for the car.
He has breached the Sale of Goods Act 1979, ammendment 2003 part II section 4 in that its not "durable" "nor fit for purpose" (Steering gear housing and turbo failure)
He has breached the Misrepresentation act of 1967 with sales pitch of "no mechanical issues" "as near to original condition as possible" and "this particular car is in excellent condition" plus some other things in the advert.

I will keep you all posted on my progress however hes refusing to give me an instant refund until hes inpected it, however I don't want him tampering with what could be a potential court case. I have said if he brings me the cash he can have his car back however he is refusing, which only makes me more suspicious as if he had nothing to hide he would just refund and collect then cut his losses and move on. Hes desperate to get hold of the vehicle first and I know exactly why. hwever I'm holding out for his reply now I have made him aware.
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PinkPig
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmare. Best of luck getting your money back. Take photos of everything. Also maybe even video evidence with a mechanic describing what they see so the vehicle condition is full recorded in every way as it stands at the moment.

I wonder if it worth forwarding this to one of the consumer columns/programmes (eg BBC Watchdog, Guardian Consumer Champions etc)
There have been so many tales of this trader on this forum and I wonder how many other forums? over the last couple of years, I'm sure they could get a good story out of it and maybe help your case?
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Et1310



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a system to protect evidence in copyright cases when I was a designer, mainly to date the evidence for an eventual court hearing. All work done in the studio was copied dated signed and sent through the post to ourselves back at the studio, when the envelope arrived it would be dated by a government body The Post. Then the envelope would be opened only by the judge in front of the court, as witnesses.

In your case your independent diagnosis, pictures SD card with film. Paint bolts with coloured varnish so that if a bolt has been turned you can see the broken seal. †THE EVIDENCE NEEDS TO BE THOROUGH.

Give him his car back and if anything has changed this will only aggravate his position in front of a judge.

I hope you get satisfaction, sorry to hear you got stung.

ET
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