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2nd cracked L400 4m40 head in 12 months...

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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 19:51    Post subject: 2nd cracked L400 4m40 head in 12 months... Reply with quote

(97 L400 2.8td 4m40 Delica)

Hello Guys

I have just had confirmation from my local machine shop that the cylinder head I installed approximately 12 months ago is also cracked Evil or Very Mad

Brief history/list of parts replaced previously, approximately 12 months ago:
Aftermarket cylinder head (complete with camshaft etc)
Radiator
water pump
thermostat
viscous fan
expansion bottle
coolant
(All from Mitzybitz)

Fitted aftermarket digital temperature gauge and warning siren!

obviously don't want to fit another new head and it happen again..

It's been running well for the last 12 months, this time around happened two days after I replaced diesel pump seal and refitted pump, though was running fine after that... Until one evening on M3 heard loud sort of grinding noise and then instant overheated and cracked expansion bottle and now know the head!  Rolling Eyes

I can't see how it's anything to do with that.. wondering if it could be worn injectors causing to much heat if spray pattern not right ... Clutching at straws at mo.. obviously something causing it to get too hot

Any suggestions or advice greatly appreciated!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 19:51    Post subject: Google Ads keep this community free to join!


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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 17:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any one out there with some useful advice to give!?
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andyman



Joined: 08 Dec 2012
Posts: 5601
Location: Penrith

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 18:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get back onto Mitzibitz, tell them their head has cracked in less than a year (despite all the coolant warning systems you have installed) and they owe you.  (but be nice, and appeal to their better nature, at least to start with!)
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 18:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andy

Thanks for your message. Have already started a WhatsApp conversation with the guy there.. so far it would appear they won't accept liability.. time for further discussions I think!



[30/12/2021, 17:41] Andy Lander: Hello Paul I don't know if you remember,  I bought a new head, gasket, bolts, water pump, rad, Thermostat, fluids etc for my 97 Delica 2.8td from you guys at Mitzy Bitz early this year and all has been running fine until recently when it overheated again and split the expansion bottle. On stripping the engine today I have found the head cracked and head gasket broken. What would you advise I do now..? Best regards Andy Lander

[30/12/2021, 21:48] Paul Salford - Mitzybits: Hi Andy,

Sorry for late reply, only just sat down.

Yes I remember you, the heating engineer.

What parts did you change when doing the job other than head/gasket/bolts ???

Kind regards
Paul

[30/12/2021, 21:51] Andy Lander: Hi Paul thanks for getting back to me. Yes that's right the heating engineer!

Parts changed:
Head
Bolts
Gasket
Rad
Thermostat
Expansion bottle & cap
Water pump
All fluids - oil & water

Will check paperwork to see if any other bits as well..

[30/12/2021, 22:00] Paul Salford - Mitzybits: Blimey, Heads crack because they get hot, gaskets blow/fail because they get hot.

Something cause the engine to get hot, find that and you can fix it again.

Split hose.
Thermostat stuck closed.
Radiator leaking.
Expansion bottle cracked/broke.

Heads and gaskets don’t just fail, the cracked head and blown gasket are the result of a failure in the cooling system.

[30/12/2021, 22:05] Andy Lander: Understand that bud. Though no split hoses/rad new/thermostat fine & expansion bottle was fine until it split when engine went pop again when cylinder head/gasket went! - hasn't been loosing any water and has been running fine (I installed a digital auxiliary gauge when I done the head and temp has been fine)

Looks like I need to buy new head, gasket & bolts again!

[30/12/2021, 22:10] Paul Salford - Mitzybits: I understand what your saying, you an engineer same as me.

The head and gasket are the result of a failure in the cooling system.

Honest we sell thousands of these heads & gasket sets + install them in our own workshop and never have an issue.

I’ve been dealing in Mitzy’s for over 20 years and the 2.8 are a nightmare for cracking heads as soon as the needle goes past 3/4.
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andyman



Joined: 08 Dec 2012
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Location: Penrith

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul raises an interesting point, - at what point did you realise it was overheating and stop? Obviously your digital gauge isn't a lot of use unless it warns you in time. Does your original gauge still work, and if so, how high did it go?
On my L300, the standard gauge has only got out of the bottom quarter twice in the 12 years I have owned it, both times climbing long steep hills, fully loaded with camping gear. Both times I eased off the throttle, and pulled over as soon as safe to do so, and the gauge didn't get past half -way.

Did you torque down the bolts in the specified order and method? Were the waterways de-furred and fully flushed? I don't know if there is a recommendation to check the head bolts again after a specified period/mileage from fitting - L400 owners may be able to advise.

None of this is intended to imply any criticism of what you did, it is more a case of finding out if you took reasonable precautions in view of its previous history, to prevent the same happening again. Any and all evidence that you did, would strengthen your case, should you end up in legal dispute, and puts greater onus on Mitzibits to accept at least some responsibility and cost. If I were them, I would be willing to negotiate on the cost of replacements, simply to maintain my good name and customer goodwill. They may consider themselves the 'go-to' spares supplier for us, but there are alternatives. We are a small and fairly connected group, and a bad rep could do them a lot of damage.
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skodarapid



Joined: 10 Jul 2018
Posts: 49
Location: Northamptonshire

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 14:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy lander wrote:

Honest we sell thousands of these heads & gasket sets + install them in our own workshop and never have an issue.


I don't think the logic stacks up.  Firstly the more of them you sell, the more likely it is you will sell or have sold a dud to someone.  And the very reason so many are sold is because there is a design flaw in the 4m40 head - not wishing to be contentious - just my interpretation as to why it's such a common subject here and there are so many brandless 4m40 heads for sale online, there is a theme.  It is not such a common subject for other marques / certain car models, so, you know?
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Lewis
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 16:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be useful to know where on the head the crack occurred.

The 4M40 heads are prone to developing a crack between the third and fourth pistons. That area is above where the Heating system connects into the block.

I had a new aftermarket head fitted to my previous Deli, following a breakdown in Spain, several years back. The Mitsu garage out there diagnosed it as a cracked head, without removing it and declined to repair it, as they were overloaded with work; so my Deli was brought back to the UK by my insurer and the work done by my nephew, a well qualified HGV, plant and heavy machinery mechanic, with me acting as a spanner passer.

It turned out that the head was not cracked, just moved sufficiently out of position due to the gasket failing, between the first and second pistons.  Having already bought a head, new pistons, crankshaft, bearings, water-pump, thermostat and head bolts, etc, we fitted that lot rather than putting the original one back on. Plus of course a good deglazing of the piston bores, before fitting the pistons.

Now the crux of the matter is that the same issue occurred after a few months, and I thought the head had gone.  After taking it off It was obvious the new gasket had gone in the same place as the old one. To be on the safe side I had the new head skimmed and tested, but it was in perfect condition. The place that did the test supplied me with a really high quality gasket, which had copper seals around each of the oil and water ports. After fitting that there was no more trouble.

So there is a reasonable suspicion that the head could have gone due to a poor quality gasket being used.

As for MitzyBitz supplying ‘Thousands’ of new 4M40 heads, which I guess would have to be for Pajero/ Shoguns, rather than Deli’s. I’m dubious!
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 0:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all for your time and advice.

In reply to your kind post Lewis; yes this has also cracked between no. 3&4 piston.
I also wonder the same regarding your suspicion if it could be caused by a poor head gasket quality - I fitted a four notch 'Japanparts' item. I think once I do finally fit a new head I will invest in a genuine Mitsubishi head gasket.. unless anyone has better advice?

Current update on the discussions I am having with Mitzybitz are..

I awaiting them to get back to me with an offer of how we can come to an agreement in resolving the problem..

In theory I believe 12 months to be the warranty period but following recent discussions with them they won't admit or accept that it is due to a cheap manufactured head, but obviously having changed the majority of the cooling system as well at the same time their possible theory that it's due to a cooling system issue is unfounded.

Will update further once I hear back with their proposal how we are going to resolve it!..

I am a little confused and concerned regarding a text I received from the guy at Mitzybitz yesterday though as he is now saying they have found me a second hand AMC head which they are going to get pressure tested and skimmed for me possibly... This concerns me in a few ways... Do I really want a second hand head?? And why are they now going down this route if their usual replacement heads which apparently are manufactured in Taiwan are as good as they claim they are!?....
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 0:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andyman thanks for your help.

Yes I torqued the head correctly and don't believe a second check to be necessary and yes all waterways etc cleared and clear.

The aftermarket temperature alarm I installed (set at 80 degrees) immediately sounded as the engine overheated within seconds of hearing the loud grinding noise which I now believe to have been the noise of water boiling within the engine.
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andyman



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like you went beyond the call of duty to protect your new c/h from failure. Arguably, there is an engineering design weakness here, but like many others before them, Mitsubishi may have taken the cynical attitude that it was financially more expedient to perhaps replace the odd head that went pop within the warranty period despite proof that all warranty conditions were met. Then pass the design to after-market manufacturers with far less accountability and you end up with a flawed design, made from potentially inferior materials, with inferior quality control. Of course, anyone in this country who retails such a product, takes the risk and the responsibility - it has to be fit for purpose, given reasonable use.
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PinkPig
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 20:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting you are being offered a second hand head. Sounds like an admission as to responsibility for the issue.
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 18:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mate

Exactly what I am thinking!....  Still waiting for a reply from them at moment, will update once I get a reply!
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evening all.. update on my dealings with Mitzybitz...

They have now changed their tune again and offered me a reconditioned secondhand head, manufactured in Asia for £240 or a new head again manufactured in Asia  for £480.….. (the same cost as I previously purchased one for..)
I have just sent a reply as follows;

Dear Paul Salford

Thank you for your quote

I am however confused and disappointed at this as following our recent conversations by telephone & WhatsApp text I believed you was going to offer me reimbursement or a discounted proposal offer on the new replacement cylinder head & associated parts that I now require having previously purchased these items from you in February 2021 that equate to over £800, and have proved to be defective and not fit for use 8 months later - October 2021.

I look forward to your response.

Best Regards

Andy Lander
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Lewis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that under UK Trading laws, they should refund your money, if the unit was unfit for purpose. However that would also require them to have it back for independant testing.

Unfortunately they can get round that if an item was not fitted by a qualified mechanic.

I would advise getting touch with both the Citizens advice Bureau (CAB) and the Trading Standards officer for your area.  Many of the CAB offices are now freely supported by university students doing Phd's in law, who are usually well versed in the relevant laws.
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your advice Lewis

I will wait to see if I get a reply & can resolve with them (nothing as yet..) and failing that contact CAB/Trading standards.

It's a shame as I found it quite convenient having a supplier with most Delica spares available under one roof, unfortunately now I will be shopping elsewhere - any advice on a new parts supplier for all spares? (New head and ongoing maintenance spares etc)
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Bat Futtocks



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 83
Location: Wiltshire

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy,

I don't know if this is useful or not - but I am preparing to scrap my old Deli due to terminal rust.  I've taken off and sold many parts to people that needed specific bits (all done via the facebook group) but the engine is still in, and it's a good one.

It had a new head fitted by Mark at SVS in 2017, along with all the obvious bits and has run flawlessly since.

I'm in Wiltshire - is this any use to you?  I'd far rather sell the car to someone who can use the engine than see it go to the scrappy.

John
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Andy lander



Joined: 07 May 2019
Posts: 30
Location: Croydon

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John

Definitely would like to have a look, can you pm me your contact details and we can chat

I'll try and pm you with my details too
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annek



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 613
Location: Brighton, East Sussex

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be interested in looking at it for spares too, and gosh, sorry to hear of your terrible time with two cracked heads!
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Bat Futtocks



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
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Location: Wiltshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Annek - Sorry, but Andy has taken it.

Good luck finding what you're after, have you looked on the Delica Mart UK group on facebook?  There are a few knocking around...

John
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annek



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 13:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John, glad its found a useful home!
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