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Chassis split, welding needed, check your camber!


 
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RobH



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 247
Location: Chester

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 15:27    Post subject: Chassis split, welding needed, check your camber! Reply with quote

Sorry for starting yet another thread but this might be of some use to others. After a variety of seemingly unconnected symptoms, including poor shock absorbtion, bad noises from suspension, vibrations from steering - especially when in reverse and on full right lock, and camber out of serviceable range I've identified the culprit for at most if not all symptoms as a split in the chassis behind the top LHS wishbone.

I 'think' this would be hidden whilst on a jack, the metal would return to it's original pre-split position, but when resting on the wheels the split opens up quite wide.

This is the split on the engine bay side, behind where the shock bracket mounts.



This shows how it should look looking behind the front RHS wheel, note, no gap



This is the LHS, where the supporting chassis has failed and has been pushed back by the vehicle weight. Result is negative camber, lots of unpleasant noises, vibration, ineffective suspension, an empty wallet and hair loss.



I'd appreciate some input regarding the viability of successfully repairing this. As I understand it, this part of the chassis isn't supporting the main vehicle weight.

It appears that 2002 - 2003 V6 petrol models are most likely to be affected. I don't think it's rot, it just seems to be a VERY weak spot. If your camber is starting to look a little negative, you're hearing unpleasant noises from the front suspension or you're suffering from a hard, poor quality of ride then get it checked.

My problem now is finding a mobile welder who can repair and beef the chassis up in this area. Access appears to be very limited.

If anyone has any recommendations for an auto welder in the N Wales/Chester area please let me know.

Cheers
H
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Green Grouch
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012
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Location: Dorset

PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks a bit scary.



At least you found the problem

Good luck with the fix 👍
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andyman



Joined: 08 Dec 2012
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Location: Penrith

PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 18:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

This looks like metal fatigue, started by an extreme shock (big pothole?) on something that is erring on the side of under-engineered to start with, and once started, has continued to flex, fatigue and split with use. On the bright side, from what I can see, the steel looks surprisingly rust-free, and a little disassembly should allow the original crack to be (a) repaired and (b) reinforced. It may be advisable to similarly reinforce the other side (or not - you would have to be the judge of that!)
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Lewis
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Joined: 25 May 2006
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Location: Huddersfield

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right I'm back from my Scottish camping trip.

I've corrected the links and edited the thread posts for easier reading.  Smile

Luckily that is a double skin area and it appears that only the outer (Non load bearing) skin has split, so is not as bad as first seems (no pun intended).

A decent welder will be able to put that back together and brobably weld it to the inner box section whilst at it.
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RobH



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 247
Location: Chester

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 20:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.
The unfortunate fact is that the area that supports the top wishbone is flexing inwards with every little road bump. I think it’s only the shock mount contacting the inner seam of the wishbone that’s stopping it collapsing completely when under load. I carry my three year old around a lot so I can’t take any chances on a quick job. I did have a guy lined up to do this on my drive but had a look underneath from a pit with a local specialist. It’s split further back as well. To do a proper job means clearing away all sorts of components to give proper access. Unfortunately quite a lot of time, trouble and expense. I’ve no better option at the moment.

I guess I didn’t bother too much about hitting the ubiquitous local speed bumps a bit faster than I should - it’s supposed to be an off roader after all. The only other thing I remember is hitting an unexpected cattle grid in a big dip on a dark night in Derbyshire, was going too fast, it was a bit like something from the start of the A-team. Issues probably started not too long after that, I can’t really remember.
Cheers
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RobH



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 247
Location: Chester

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 20:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ps, thanks for the edits Lewis.
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Andy W



Joined: 03 May 2015
Posts: 559
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 15:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't look good, but like Andyman said, it's not corroded so not was bad as it looks.  To get the to wishbone out which entails the shock absorber anyway is very straight forward and should only take a couple of hours max and then you will have plenty of room to do a good repair.

Good luck,

Andy
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RobH



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 247
Location: Chester

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not bothered about pulling the suspension out, I've been removing and installing various suspension parts for the last few weeks, it's the work that needs doing from inside the engine bay that's an access problem. It could probably be patched up from the wheel well but I can't take any chances on it failing, it really needs tackling from both sides.
Cheers
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skodarapid



Joined: 10 Jul 2018
Posts: 49
Location: Northamptonshire

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lewis wrote:
Right I'm back from my Scottish camping trip.

I've corrected the links and edited the thread posts for easier reading.  Smile

Luckily that is a double skin area and it appears that only the outer (Non load bearing) skin has split, so is not as bad as first seems (no pun intended).

A decent welder will be able to put that back together and brobably weld it to the inner box section whilst at it.


How could it be non load bearing?  It has failed through some kind of overloading, whether fatigue, the cattle grid incident, or something unknown.
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Lewis
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Joined: 25 May 2006
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Location: Huddersfield

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 15:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note it is not a 'box section', it is wrapped around three sides of the box section under it, which bears the load.

Something has happened to it that has caused it to split away and fracture.  Potentially a bit of missplaced jack positioning.
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skodarapid



Joined: 10 Jul 2018
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Location: Northamptonshire

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 23:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure exactly what you mean but regardless of how it is constructed, this is the vertical beam that the upper wisbhone is connected to it, so it is carrying the upper wishbone loads.  The photos show this vertical beam has detached from the fore-aft structure up top, and on the inboard face is the large crack.
RobH, there is some discussion with pictures of your issue on the MDOCUK facebook group, I searched 'upper wishbone' and came across some.

Did it sport the extreme negative camber before the mechanic changed the wishbone?  If so, it's surprising he didn't find the rather massive structural failure himself.
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Lewis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not a beam. It is a skin that is tack welded to the underlying box section.

Note the low amount of rust on the split edges, the very top is free from rust. That indicates it is fresh damage.
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skodarapid



Joined: 10 Jul 2018
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Location: Northamptonshire

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 18:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you think the underlying box section has failed?  Because we know the wishbone is now wrongly located with negative camber, etc.
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RobH



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 247
Location: Chester

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Camber was badly out and the damage was done prior to changing the top arm. The reason the mechanic suggested changing the old arm was because it was catching on the shock mount. I don’t know what his thought process was, I didn’t want to know, suspension and steering is something I’ve always tried to stay away from. Unfortunately I’ve now had to develop a basic understanding because, as usual, so called professionals have let me down badly.

The original problem was likely exacerbated by the milners replacement arm which did not operate smoothly due to the oversized washer on the pivot under the torsion bar saddle, effectively making the top pivot rigid, every bump went straight to the chassis. Mechanic had also put back together with torsion bar anchor point displaced.

The wear pattern on the tyre shows the camber has been wrong for a while. Symptoms got even worse after the new arm because it was making stronger contact with the shock bracket. The old arm inner seam wore away gradually, probably over months if not years as the chassis problem got worse.
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Lewis
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

The camber was most likely out due to the fractured plating. If the split in the metal was prior to the mechanic seeing it, then lack of knowledge of the vehicle would have contribute to his statement.

However the wishbone being out of alignment should have suggested to him that he fully examine both sides of the chassis, which would have led to the discovery of the split metalwork. That should have been repaired first, possibly, if not probably, resulting in no new wishbone being required.

So far it has been a waste of time in attempting to find and rectify a fault with a replacement wishbone that most likely did not exist to start with.

What needs to happen now is to take several steps back, get the fractured plate welded back together, preferably with some re-enforcment plating over the top, refit the new wishbone. Then re-index both Torsion bars and get it into a 4x4 competent garage for a full realignment of the suspension.
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