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Shaft issues.

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YOZA



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 13:30    Post subject: Shaft issues. Reply with quote

I am having problems with my shaft leaking. Shocked

My fuel pump shaft that is, it has two grooves running around it circumference from were the front seal touches it.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/1C333793_A712_4DCD_8E96_46ACBF326CFB_IMG_0561.JPG


Firstly- how the hell does a soft rubber seal wear out a hardened steel shaft ?

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/26D58AA3_E2A8_452C_A6EC_157A4FABC209_IMG_0557.JPG]


Secondly fitting a new seal is futile as the air/oil is sucked past the seal as it does not seat on the shaft.

So I had three choices / new shaft, sleeve shaft or use a spacer to pack the rear of the seal so it sits on a fresh piece of shaft.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/C7DAC0E6_484A_4AC5_B8F0_E20FA17A5CF5_IMG_0566.JPG


I used the spacer option. Now my new seal sits 2mm proud of its usual position and butts up against a nitrile washer-note the washer has a small hole in it, this marries up to the hole in the pump casing which lubricates the seal.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/C8D86404_9ED6_4A83_852F_991E935C6CB0_IMG_0567.JPG

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/A02B5B50_9181_4CBE_869B_866F5EB8AB64_IMG_0569.JPG

The front seal now runs on a fresh, smooth score free piece of shaft, also it does not clash with the pump gear cog on reassembly.

But will it work ?

Soon see, ready to go back in.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/14E801B9_14C1_453A_9BAF_EF397AB739EE_IMG_0543.JPG

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/70C64F98_97B3_4F0D_8FA9_EEF29AFABA3E_IMG_0549.JPG

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/6EF21D53_0B3D_437F_950A_1D9375FC5E88_IMG_0539.JPG
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 13:30    Post subject: Google Ads keep this community free to join!


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mark3



Joined: 29 Nov 2009
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Location: Rainham Village, Essex

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 18:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non of these photos are working for me!

Is this since the seal replacement you did earlier in the year when the weather totally screwed my plans to come and do it for you? or have I got you mixed up with someone else?
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 19:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark - yes that seal worked for a while, but the double groove in the shaft is allowing air and engine oil into the pump especially on start up.

So now I have gone down the route of putting a spacer washer behind the seal to move it forward about 2mm, now the lips of the seal are running forward of the grooves on fresh shaft. If that doesnít work I have found a company who will machine a sleeve with a seal to suit, but they have a 3 week lead time at the minute so I will try this way first.

Not put it back on yet as I am reconditioning my starter motor whilst it is-easy to get to, as just lately it has had a hard life trying to start the truck on first startup. †Shocked

I still donít understand how a rubber seal can wear a groove in a hardened steel shaft. Confused

Can anyone see my pictures ?

Merry Christmas....BAH humbug.
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 17:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photobucket is rubbish

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/C47E6F30_E167_4B67_A334_D2E5A855F0BC_IMG_0559.JPG
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 18:17    Post subject: Photobucket test !!!!! Reply with quote

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/vv188/lubabailey/.highres/804A3306-A3BC-474C-A7CB-E7412272FEC9_zps2lrfmuo1.jpg
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mark3



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, a rubber seal CANíT wear a groove in a metal shaft †Shocked †itís a machined groove from the factory.

The first groove you come across nearest the front pf the shaft is a machined groove and is there for the front lip of the seal to sit in, this is one of the differences between a Bosch pump and the Zexel copy, the Bosch pumps don't have this machined groove hense the Bosch seal don't have the front lip, which is why fitting a Bosch seal to a Zexel pump it don't last for much more than a year before it starts to fill the sump with fuel, fitting a Xexel seal into a Zexel pump incorrectly kind of does the same thing but they tend to fail a bit quicker.

The shaft wear from the seals skirt that you see slightly behind the machined groove has never been enough for a new seal to not overcome reliably for many many years and 1000s and 1000s of miles and in over 1100 seal changes over 11 years I think I only had three or four ever come back to me needing doing again but at least nine years after....

The chances are you incorrectly fitted the seal which is why it failed again so quickly, the seal should be pushed in so itís flush with the casing it fits into, this will have the sealís lip perfectly lined up to sit in the shaft groove, any further in and the lip and groove don't line up and it needs to be done again usually no more than six months later.

Best way to install the seal is to use JUST a hammer, tapping it in gently and evenly this way its impossible to push it in too far and it land in exactly the right place every single time, using a big socket or suchlike means there is nothing to stop the seal going in too far, I seen it all before, its a very common mistake.

I don't think getting the shaft sleeved will help as the pump is designed to run with a double lip seal with the grooved shaft......Pushing the seal in too far kind of gives you exactly this and that don't last long at all.
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 17:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply, not really what I wanted to hear as it is too late the pump is back on, but not buttoned up yet.

The front groove that you have described as a machined groove for the lip of the seal to fit in is the same depth as the groove to the rear which you have described as wear, so my shaft is worn.

Hopefully moving the seal forward 1.5mm will alleviate the wear groove to the rear, but not sure how the seal will perform with the front lip not running in the machined front groove.

Soon see.

Anyway †Iím getting good at taking out these pumps now, this time it only took me six  days to do, and I only kicked the cat twice. †Very Happy
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 17:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/1C333793_A712_4DCD_8E96_46ACBF326CFB_IMG_0561.JPG

These are my two grooves almost the same depth.
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Andy W



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 20:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen many shafts worn by seals etc. in the mining and ground works industries, some obviously assisted by the environment they are working in but also in clean areas as well. It's always a bit mind boggling how a rubber seal wears through a chromed shaft or soft white metal bearing shells wear a crank shaft.
Andy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 20:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy W, Yosa. - - - And anyone else interested.

In engineering, well known that Soft wears Hard  Confused   Question

Plastics and rubber are commonly abrasive - (Unless formulated not to be abrasive)
So is Copper. A good conductor of Heat & electricity, also has excellent Anti Bacterial properties.

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Andy W



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 21:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

So true Deker, seen it many times in bottling lines as well in supposedly clean environments.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also noted it, when I fitted some of those orange polyethylene bushes to my front anti-roll bar, having not realised they needed constant re-lubing with grease.

Those were quickly replaced with the black rubber self lubing OEM ones.
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 17:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

My cunning plan to pack out the front seal didnít work, pump needs to come out again, Iím starting to lose the will to keep it.

It struggled to start, when it did it would tick over for a bit, then start spluttering with lots of black smoke out the back, it drove okay but at idle it would splutter and smoke like hell - other than that it was fine. Rolling Eyes

Ah well we have yet another lockdown, so maybe this horrible job will give me something to do and occupy my mind.
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 16:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have taken the pump out again and the lip of the seal was out of shape, maybe due to running on the flat part of the shaft and not the groove - I am now waiting for a new seal but our postal service is limping badly with lots of staff off with covid.

Such a small insignificant part yet if it messes up it causes you major grief.

I have decided to go for shocking pink for the timing marks this time around †Embarassed


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mark3



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOZA wrote:
It struggled to start, when it did it would tick over for a bit, then start spluttering with lots of black smoke out the back, it drove okay but at idle it would splutter and smoke like hell - other than that it was fine.  


This don't sound completely like a pump seal issue?

Typically 90% of the time they will start  from cold on the button, run fine for maybe 20 seconds to a minute or two (depending on the severity of the problem) then stall while producing lots of grey smoke, will take lots of cranking over to restart and will be puffing out grey smoke while trying, then it will cough into life and run fine unless it stalls all over again, and it may stall several times again depending on the severity of the problem.

Once warmed up (unless its a UK Shogun it'll be fine for the rest of the day and if left all day probably still fine on an evening start but will be an ass again the next morning.

If its giving you trouble once warmed up at idling, spluttering with black smoke that is not a pump seal issue!

Also you mention it drives okay, if it was a pump seal issue you would had got past the seal issue it to be able to drive it in the first place..... this sounds very much like it may be an injector pump timing issue..
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 14:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

We shall see once my seal gets delivered.

The seal I packed out as I wrongly thought it was running in a worn groove was damaged, so I will fit my new one to run in the groove.

I have TDC for sure as I took out injector no1 along with the glow plugs for ease of rotation, I put a dowel into the injector hole and could feel the piston rising as I rotated the crank. When it was at its highest point I could see the Hex with the notch on the cam, it was horizontal/flat.

I also looked at the cam chain for two dots on the top of the cam gear, but there was nothing, I suspect my replacement chain didnít have any.

So when looking through the power steering and brake vacuume apertures on reassembly I should have everything lined up.(with the help of my pink marker  Very Happy )

If it doesnít run right after this you may see it for sale on eBay as spares or repairs......
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Andy W



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 19:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue I had with my pump three or four years ago sounds similar to yours, I could start it and it ran rough as a bears **** with lots of black smoke. †With the glow plugs on it ran better but still very badly: I timed it so that when the pump was fully fitted the timing marks lined up, what I should have done was line the timing marks up before fitting it. †As the gears are not straight cut, when you slide the pump into position, the pump gear will turn so that the timing marks no longer line up.
So maybe that is it,
Andy
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 20:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I have found after three or more fittings is that you rotate the pump on fitting slightly clockwise when meshing the teeth on the gears.
Then slide it in on the location dowel allowing the pump to rotate anti-clockwise, therefore the pump cog stays on the T arrow as you require, itís actually harder to explain that it is to actually do.
Then put one of the four M6 bolts in to hold the pump in situ while you double check the notched tooth still lines up with the T arrow using a torch through the power steering hole.
If it is all lined up exactly, do a small celebration dance, then carry on with the rebuild.
If it doesnít line up kick the cat and do it again.
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YOZA



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 20:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a photo for your delectation of the rear of the pumps face plate with the timing marks clearly embossed N or T - donít quote me but I was told N is for normally aspirated and T is for turbo.



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YOZA



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 15:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

When torquing up the pump gear I used two long reach sockets and a breaker bar to lock the gear solid.

[img width=800]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/vv188/lubabailey/001(77).JPG[/img]
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